New at fastblog_fastblogit

MR mark 2013-06-19 11:00:18

seth 2013-06-19 07:16:04 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-18 13:14:30 [item 16572]

ALREADY ALWAYS LISTENING #already_always_listening

Most of us have an already-always-listening of “I am right”, or at least, “I am not wrong”.

As a consequence, when something challenges what we think or believe, we are often unable to consider this other view as a real possibility, and to examine it as though it might be right, or worse yet, that we might actually be wrong.

We get defensive. And, if it turns out that we can’t escape the validity of this other view, or that we were actually wrong, this listening often leaves us upset, and with an unexpressed feeling of resentment.

This almost universal listening prompted William James, the father of American psychology, to say, “When a thing is new, people say ‘It is not true’.

Later when its truth becomes obvious, they say ‘It’s not important’. Finally, when its importance cannot be denied, they say, ‘Anyway, it’s not new’.”

(W. Erhard & M. Jensen from the Ontological Leadership Course)

Well yeah we both do it.

lots of it goes back to our childhood history and habits.

i think there is not just a little bit of the old, "hey let me do it myself", i sure got a healthy dose of that sitting at GW's table and having to watch him draw the geometric lines.

but who knows maybe it is all just social morphogenic fileds ... lol.

i certainly can see the gestalt that looking at something from an entirely different point of view can jog your perspective and allow you to see something that you would not ordinarily. me, i used to switch my position in bed so that i would alter my perspective to the world when i woke up. that's what i get from this item. Was there something else here?

Yep!
I don't have your childhood thingy.
While you (& I) have the RWG down pat, this is a predisposed way of hearing what another says. It may never get expressed in an argument or conversation at all. It does shape our world & we shape other's world with it. I doubt that shifting positions in bed will do the job. It takes a bit of transformation to get out of it. For example, I can express a listening for a particular context by starting out "My listening for you is that you are still like baby brother or the Seth from childhood" & you would then acknowledge (w/o the rwg) what I have said & come up with some positive ways to transform my listening into the current time.

seth seth 2013-06-17 17:51:08

source: mark
I claim, as a result of the experiment, that some countries like Russia are a north centric, the US is middle centric & those below the equator are otherwise. The Norks have a peculiar view from being dominated by China, with Japan blocking them & the Phillippeans further restricting their southern lanes with the South Koreans blocking their land lines south. Their geography could very well lead to paranoia! I claim, as a result of the experiment, that some countries like Russia are a north centric, the US is middle centric & those below the equator are otherwise. The Norks have a peculiar view from being dominated by China, with Japan blocking them & the Phillippeans further restricting their southern lanes with the South Koreans blocking their land lines south. Their geography could very well lead to paranoia!

... well for me blocking and dominating and restricting have nothing to do with up/down, north/south. blocking and dominating and restricting have only to do with proximity and access ... how hard is it to get there, what kind of resource access is being controlled by one country or the next.

but several years ago i was totally into Google Earth and rotated thing around a lot. but i did not get any particular political gestalt. so, no, i don't know what you are talking about.

seth seth 2013-06-17 10:52:07

MR 2013-06-17 10:33:59 [item 16577]

seth 2013-06-17 10:24:56 [item 16577]

MR 2013-06-17 09:48:52 [item 16577]

I doubt the globally unique thingy. Look at what happened to PML in facebook. Unless you are saying a hashtag can gather any shit to it regardless of whether it is appropriate. I don't think facebook people in the vast majority understand it.

huh? Obviously it is globally unique ... that is not even in question. And obviously anybody can tag anything whatever ... that is ... err ... the very nature of the beast ... remember [title Association] ?

and, incidentally, your #PML tag worked perfectly ... it ended up connecting your response to this image ... which i assume was your intention.

I guess you missed the point where the #PML also picked up the Pakistan Muslim League - a truly worthless association.

Well a thing is what you make it. Me, i would not have tried to make a common 3 character string a tag and expect it not to have other associations. But i think you will find that when the tag is wisely associated that it works just as intended ... for example #a11y.

MR mark 2013-06-17 09:44:25

seth 2013-06-17 09:23:56 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 09:17:44 [item 16572]

seth 2013-06-17 09:09:39 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 09:03:09 [item 16572]

seth 2013-06-17 08:45:08 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 08:39:17 [item 16572]

#still_missed_the_point

such an assertion without explanation is meaningless to me. it does not inform. rather it just expressess rwg. have fun with that.

You almost always talk about something of your own which is not what I am talking about. Good luck with your #personal_walled_garden!

hmmm ... well doubtlessly that is true ... but is it not always the case with any actual conversation?

what i claim i do is first try to understand what you are saying ... then my response will be what my peculiar perspective has to inform what you actually said.

i have no idea why that should annoy you.

Not true. You most always do not inform me of what I actually said. Still in delusion! You at best tell me what ran through your mind ABOUT what I said.

Mark, how does "first try to understand what you are saying" get twisted into "inform me of what I actually said". You could try to understand what i actually do say before you twist it into something entirely different. No, i do not try to parrot back to you what you say ... rather i try to understand it myself ... then my response is to inform you of something else ... of to ... err ... contribute to the train of thought. If i don't understand what you said, then i usually try to ask about it, or if i suspect it is destructive to my own trains, will just ignore it. If i just understood, and then regurgitated it back to you, of what use is that?

Really, of what use is that?

I bolded it for you! I reiterate that most of the time I get the distinct idea that you missed what I said & just used my post as a springboard to regurgitate something of yours. As an example, I could be wrong here

,did you actually try in Google Earth to rotate the viewpoint of some region of the Earth & see what that does to your geographic understanding of the countries in that region? I claim, as a result of the experiment, that some countries like Russia are a north centric, the US is middle centric & those below the equator are otherwise. The Norks have a peculiar view from being dominated by China, with Japan blocking them & the Phillippeans further restricting their southern lanes with the South Koreans blocking their land lines south. Their geography could very well lead to paranoia!

seth seth 2013-06-17 09:23:56

MR 2013-06-17 09:17:44 [item 16572]

seth 2013-06-17 09:09:39 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 09:03:09 [item 16572]

seth 2013-06-17 08:45:08 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 08:39:17 [item 16572]

#still_missed_the_point

such an assertion without explanation is meaningless to me. it does not inform. rather it just expressess rwg. have fun with that.

You almost always talk about something of your own which is not what I am talking about. Good luck with your #personal_walled_garden!

hmmm ... well doubtlessly that is true ... but is it not always the case with any actual conversation?

what i claim i do is first try to understand what you are saying ... then my response will be what my peculiar perspective has to inform what you actually said.

i have no idea why that should annoy you.

Not true. You most always do not inform me of what I actually said. Still in delusion! You at best tell me what ran through your mind ABOUT what I said.

MR mark 2013-06-17 09:17:44

seth 2013-06-17 09:09:39 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 09:03:09 [item 16572]

seth 2013-06-17 08:45:08 [item 16572]

MR 2013-06-17 08:39:17 [item 16572]

#still_missed_the_point

such an assertion without explanation is meaningless to me. it does not inform. rather it just expressess rwg. have fun with that.

You almost always talk about something of your own which is not what I am talking about. Good luck with your #personal_walled_garden!

hmmm ... well doubtlessly that is true ... but is it not always the case with any actual conversation?

what i claim i do is first try to understand what you are saying ... then my response will be what my peculiar perspective has to inform what you actually said.

i have no idea why that should annoy you.

Not true. You most always do not inform me of what I actually said. Still in delusion! You at best tell me what ran through your mind ABOUT what I said.

seth seth 2013-06-17 08:41:41

MR 2013-06-17 08:37:43 [item 16577]

seth 2013-06-17 08:27:13 [item 16577]

MR 2013-06-17 08:01:31 [item 16577]

I don't get what you think is so wonderful. The only thingy that seems to have any collection & thus a clue as to what you are talking about with a tag is the #privacy hashtag.

Three meaningless tags, linked together, does not AI make! - #MR. ; #(2013) ; #notAI

It is not "three meaningless tags linked together", it is a sentence with a subject a verb and a object. I bolded, for you, the operant word that you seem to have missed.

Look, this syntax (or something like it) probably will not catch on ... but it could. Nor am i saying that in itself it is "wonderful" or "AI". Everything is a little step in a direction. For me, as you know, tagging is a biggie ... so Facebook starting to use tags is great .... also their tieing that into other network tags is even greater. A tag is a sticky edge ... maybe these sticky edges do create a morphogenic field ... err?

They are meaningless until they gather associations. How do they get connected to Twitter or some other #twats to play with.

Well you can use Google or the Facebook search itself. The tag is a unique sting globally and is not just local to the data in which it is used. Everyboy has been using it as globally unique. You could look it as a domainless URI. It does create a global tag room.

seth seth 2013-06-17 08:36:32

MR 2013-06-17 07:36:27 [item 16572]

The point, maybe missed, is that if you are in the North you have one viewpoint of the neighborhood looking down as if everything is below & conversely. I read a book many years ago about people drawing maps of their neighborhood where the details get sketchier the farther away from their experience & very detailed where they live. That paradigm governs more than just geography it expands to politics etc.

well i don't know if i "missed" any of that, since when i read your paragraph here it all just clicks as if it were my own thought ...

.

thing is, when you consider global politics, geography might not always be the dominant consideration. that is why i mentioned the [tag fight clubs] that seem to dominate the politics of the middle east. we americans don't always, me thinks, grock how important that fight is to the middle east ... instead we seem to always interpret the fights to be about democracy vs totalarian ... but is that actually the primary fight which results obtain?

seth seth 2013-06-14 10:45:19

...

You have been my friend. That in itself is a tremendous thing. I wove my webs for you because I liked you. After all, what's a life, anyway? We're born, we live a little while, we die. A spider's life can't help being something of a mess, with all this trapping and eating flies. By helping you, perhaps I was trying to lift up my life a trifle. Heaven knows anyone's life can stand a little of that.” ♥

~ E.B. White, Charlotte's Web ~

Thanks Garden of Pensiveness

MR mark 2013-06-14 08:49:09

seth 2013-06-14 08:45:19 [item 16567]

MR 2013-06-14 08:21:15 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-14 08:16:36 [item 16567]

MR 2013-06-13 16:41:02 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-13 14:07:37 [item 16567]

source: mark
collapsing shit leads to misapplication & errors ... why talk about it at all .... we both manage without the word salad in between ... you talk about your diagram as if that is your reality ... good luck ... my reality has much more solid & tangible properties ... I really don't need the map ... Erhard in later slides & lectures began to elaborate on what language could be used to shape transformations in this World for higher performance & integrity etc. Why not focus on some of that. Your diagram will not lead in such a direction.

That is all just about you. Cognize and picture and work with your reality and the world just whatever way you choose.

My own study of semiotics starting with some of Steiner's books and progressing through my mentographic studies in the 80s and my studies of the Semantic Web in the 90s used the wisdom of that diagram to disambuify what diverse philosohers were talking about. You of course may, or may not, find it useful.

Incidentally a sentence like your "you talk about your diagram as if that is your reality" is either very poorly worded or just a pain and simple insult. Obviously the diagram is not my reality. Perhaps you are trying to tease something out ... i don't know. And, incidentally the tree of life is just exactly the same kind of diagram and should not be reified either.

Have you ever noticed that whenever you whip out that diagram we never get anywhere? Maybe it's because you are talking about your stuff & I am talking about something else. Not a big deal, but it doesn't add to my understanding. Those who grok the Otz ChIim don't grok it looking like that it is entirely different as a real inspiration. Same way with your diagram. I'm asking for you to go beyond your glass bead game into the real world whatever that is. But maybe not ...

Consciousness changes it is not all logic & mathematics.

Hmmm .... so are you saying that you grock the tree of life ... that complex diagram composed of esoteric symbols ... yet you do not understand Pierce's rather simple juxtaposition of three elements of language?

peculiar !
i find it hard to believe.

That's because you made up your own story about it which was #full_of_shit. Try eating a picture of a tomato; or going to a map of the North Pole; or fucking a video of a voluptuous beautiful chick & get back to me if you can't tell the difference.

whatever. apparently you are not in a good mood for useful communication. have a nice day.

#insulting #merde

way to get out of following my posts.

seth seth 2013-06-14 08:45:19

MR 2013-06-14 08:21:15 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-14 08:16:36 [item 16567]

MR 2013-06-13 16:41:02 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-13 14:07:37 [item 16567]

Consciousness changes it is not all logic & mathematics.

peculiar !
i find it hard to believe.

whatever. apparently you are not in a good mood for useful communication. have a nice day.

MR mark 2013-06-14 08:21:15

seth 2013-06-14 08:16:36 [item 16567]

MR 2013-06-13 16:41:02 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-13 14:07:37 [item 16567]

Consciousness changes it is not all logic & mathematics.

peculiar !
i find it hard to believe.

MR mark 2013-06-14 08:17:53

seth 2013-06-14 07:21:50 [item 16567]

MR 2013-06-13 17:41:52 [item 16567]

BTW, if you get anywhere into Werner Erhard's writings deep enough you will run into his "life is a conversation" context.

yeah i like that one. i tell the world a story and it tells me one back ... and/or ... the universe tells me a story and i tell... it one back ... and/or ... i find myself in a predicament, then try to figure it out. all good. me, i have this thing that everybody "gets" to make up their unique stance ... lots of different ones do get tried out ... the better ones, should they be communicated, will get propagated. i rather dislike the idea that there is just one way to stand, Erhard just happens to know it, and if i matriculate with his tapes, i will too.

Obviously you did not get anywhere near WE's wallaby!

seth seth 2013-06-14 08:16:36

MR 2013-06-13 16:41:02 [item 16567]

seth 2013-06-13 14:07:37 [item 16567]

Consciousness changes it is not all logic & mathematics.

peculiar !
i find it hard to believe.