Did this seriously happen?
Did this seriously happen!?!
Context: I sit by a stranger in a cafe. Open my laptop and check facebook. I turn to him and ask a question...approx recap...
“Excuse me, do you mind if I ask you what I’m guessing will sound like a very strange question? Don’t worry, I’m not selling anything or proselytizing, it’s kind of a social experiment, related to something I’ve been thinking and writing about. "
“Um, sure, I guess.”
"Don’t worry, you can duck out any point you want."
“So, what would you say if I said that there’s a possibility that you’re actually a character in my dream?”
“Ha, woh, wasn’t expecting that one. Um, well, I mean anything’s possible, but I sure feel like I’m real."
"But what if you’re only real for a while, like while I’m having this dream?"
"Well, if this was your dream, couldn’t you just make anything happen?”
“Maybe, but maybe I’m not yet totally lucid -you know, not yet fully aware that I’m dreaming -at least not enough to do ’anything’ I want. And in those kinds of normal dreams, seems like things just kind of happen along - I don’t think about their ’weirdness’ or about being able to do whatever I want.”
"So, you’re saying that I’m just kind of ’happening along’ in your dream because your subconscious is making me up?"
"Yeah, I guess so. It’s a possibility at least. They say the subconscious is millions of times more powerful than our ’waking’ conscious mind. I know it sounds potentially massively self-centered, but dream worlds are ’all about the dreamer’, right?"
"True, seems like they are."
"I mean, sorry if this sounds offensive but can I ask you: ARE you real? Like, in the same way that I’m real?
"How could I ever prove that to you?"
"Good question. I suppose it would be if you did something that I didn’t want you to do, or visa-versa: you didn’t do something that I really wanted you to. Like, let’s say I really didn’t want you to raise both hands in the air right now and you went and did that, that would seem to prove a type of independent agency from mine."
<Raises his hands in the air. Winks.>
"OK. Hmmm. Well, what if I actually DID want you to do that? Like, say subconsciously? I mean, even if my conscious mind was strongly thinking "don’t, don’t, don’t raise your hands", the terror of you NOT being independent from me, just a figment of my mind, thus not being as real or free as me, and thus my being totally alone, stuck in a solipsistic dream, would just be too painful to handle. So maybe my subconscious was actually willing that you do it. Dang. A conundrum."
"It sounds like you’re going to have to trust that I live a life independent of you and what you’re aware of. I can tell you that I have a whole life of choices, a ton of memories, a set of values & preferences, fears & desires, many things that you know nothing about and that are different than yours. So if this is your dream, it’s more likely a dream that we’re sharing together."
A man walks up behind me and asks if I have the time. I turn, get my phone out from my bag and check, then tell him. He thanks me and I turn back to the stranger, who is no longer there.
There are many people coming and going from this cafe, possibly one of them is him. Yet the time was so short when I checked the time, and it seems weird that he’d just get up and go. But this conversation was weird. What isn’t weird? Certainly existence is -though I often wonder why more people don’t talk about that. I give up and return to Facebook, deciding whether to comment on a story I’m reading about the nature of reality. Who wrote this anyway?
-- Leif Hansen
- What’s real?
- What does it mean?
While watching Irma updates on TV – is that all real & happening or just in the minds of the people in Florida & people watching TV? – I suspect “real” munged out into an individual experience – barely shareable a la seth ‘s ontology & epistemology.
There is something I call the IS! factor
clues here in Ming existence & is – outside of just a few minds.
Then too we could sit around & discuss the expiration date on existence? … long after it happened?
I know that you have authority and external control and self confidence issues that disallow you this possibility for yourself mark, but nevertheless, it is working very well for me. It does not matter if I am right … it only matters that it works and makes sense and flows and creates value in my life and in the lives of those mine touches. What else is important? Being right? LOL … hardly.
I got a nice one last night at the edge of a dream in the dream world, but will not discuss it here or with you.
It is a solid indicator we can all trust, both from the inside, and in others. When we feel like positively sharing something, it’s good stuff. When we don’t, it is not.
I know what you say is not true. I have been mostly “away” from you for 2 months, and your litany of negative things continued quite unabashed without me the whole time. In fact, I notice than when I am around it tends to temper both your and Seth’s indulgence in it all. My viewpoints and clarity are hard for you to turn.
I wait for you to find the same relationship to your own flow.
What you “have” is yours to know. The indicators you emit are anyone’s to notice.
It’s the only actual point I find here.
Me, i do not doubt others exist outside of me … i know that they do by the nature of the interaction i have with them through my senses … which interaction feels quite different when i am awake. There independence has a distinct qualia … which i have never experienced in a dream or daydream.
Can i prove that to you logically using our common language .. probably not.
I would be interested in how the way you are talking changed …. how did you got here from there … in your own words, not mine.
Even you can’t prove to your self that others exist outside you regardless of your lack of doubt. All you can prove, even to yourself, is that you interact differently with your own symbols awake than you do asleep. That is all you know. You don’t know if you create the symbols and experiences they represent. It would be the same qualia either way. What would be different would be your ability to consciously create, or change, circumstances in real time and you won’t give that a try … so you don’t know.
To me is is all about #sharing … being awake to me means that i can share with others and they can share with me.
If it is all me, if others are not independent, then sharing is a farce.
Hey, people it is all about sharing!
Consciousness (or being awake) is all about sharing with others!
Try this recipe for a goodie …
- a slice of good bread
- a liberal layer of almond butter
- a layer of homemade #BlackBerryJam
- cut in 8 easy pieces
What you seem to be doing is using basic logical statements to prove the opposite. The thing is, logic can prove anything you want it to. There is some experience in your past that makes you “feel” that increased introduction of self becomes less sharing and that feeling seems to be causing you to write this logical statement you have put forward every time this subject comes up. Whatever experience you had in this area, it is not the only experience available. You were doing something differently than I am doing and others are now doing. What we do leads directly to increased sharing in abundance.
See Did this seriously happen? (comment 80756) for more on the rest.
Then your sentence, “The more you tune into exactly how much it is all you writing your story the more you can write sharing into your story” is just a blatent contradiction of things that i have said. I am saying it works the opposite. The more you consider it is all yourself, the more you are blind to the other … or said differently that is what happens the more we are not sharing. And in fact that is exactly what is happening in this interaction right here. If we were sharing mind here you woul pick that which vibrates over there from what i say from over here … sure, maybe try to go beyond it … but you would not just ignore it entirely and just contradict it as if i did not, independent of you, get thunk quit validly over here.
Back off a bit here and look at this objectively without using yourself or me as example.
We are both talking here about the mystery of creation. I think both “it’s me” and “it’s other” are two sides of the same coin of creating something new in the world … especially if that thing is a social organism … as most things, one way or another, are. Both of those vibrational energies manifest when the thing actually happens and sustains itself. Focusing exclusively on the one, at the expense of the other, is not going to make it work … except perhaps inside people’s subjective imagination.
I cannot say that i know how to solve the mystery … but i am pretty sure it involves a special balanced relationship between the freedom and energy that comes from “it’s me” and the strength and resilience that comes from independant diverse people supporting, cooperating, and complementing each other. That those logically appear in cases to contradict is part of the paradoxical mystery that gets navigated when a new thing happens and continues to live in the world … verses in a daydream.
Notice that both energies decay when left to themselves … “it’s me” dies in a splendid palace of an ego … “it’s other” dies in the “tragedy of the commons” or in shirking responsibility (let the network do it). I am betting that both of us have experienced both deaths in our lifetime … perhaps even again and again … as well as being there when the two energies actually sustain each other.
There is only one place I compare and that is when I say you share a little here, a little there, compared to how I share now. And that is relevant and factual. I know this because I used to share like you do. I did for the majority of my life. It was how I was trained to do it, by the very same people who trained you. I now share much deeper and way more often. This is a real difference I have a direct experience of on both sides, so it is quite relevant for me to articulate it.
“but i am pretty sure it involves a special balanced relationship between the freedom and energy that comes from “it’s me” and the strength and resilience that comes from independant diverse people supporting, cooperating, and complementing each other” ~ seth
Yes, exactly. That is exactly what creating your own reality does for you, and for others, and is why we do it. You may not see that logically right now and probably never will. Doesn’t change the fact that it does happen.
The “death stuff” may apply mostly as you say … but doesn’t really matter. Once one starts focusing on the maintenance and creativity of their own reality it automatically focuses one into a path of sharing that is balanced, so the “death stuff” doesn’t even need to be thought about any longer. It becomes automatically moot.
nathan you know almost nothing about how i share … you only know your own experience. Fact is that you miss just about 90% of what i share even directly with you. Me thinks you really should learn to distinguish that which comes from inside, from that which comes from others … as far as i can tell from what you say, you have yet to appreciate otherness.
Hint … it cannot be just all you.
You could re-read what i wrote above and in other thoughts and comments today when you navigate to a different, less defensive, perspective …
1) You have talked about it a lot here at FBI and other places. Explicitly with me as well. You are quite prolific about it.
2) You and I were trained how to do it by the same people … and by all accounts, which you have written about profusely, you still share that same way you were trained.
3) Your ideas about what makes sharing work are old-school … and by the Law of Attraction, would produce the same old-school results they have been producing for the last thousands of years.
4) Same as 3 for your solutions, which you have also talked in depth about here.
And I agree about you not recognizing my doings with you personally as sharing. As I have said many times, “I don’t share with you much or give you very many indicators of sharing”. When you are up to speed with sharing as your own reality creator, then how you and I share will naturally change without me doing anything different. You will be “in flow” and sharing will be natural because you will be creating authentic sharing from your own self and desire and I will easily become that for you, and you for me. Right now, I don’t want to share in the isolated and lopsided sharing model you are using. I don’t use that model because it feels like hardly sharing at all and is a whole lot of work compared to the model I do use. I seek ease in my relationships and find that ease with those who are consciously and deliberately creating their own reality and others, as I am. That is where sharing becomes truly fun and easy and full of joyous depth and love. I now live in a community where this is the norm, and it is rapidly getting more amazing for each and every one of us every day! Over this last year we have collectively broken the barrier so that each one of us, to the last, is fully on board with the knowledge and practice that we each are creating our own entire reality experience and thus the collective interaction of this tribe has become mind-blowing! I would do that with you, hell yes.
For exampe, notice how i said you did not know what i share … er, because you do not look at it (my theory) … yet you read that quite differently making me the subject of your judgemen, rather than what i said about you. And, NO, there was no “agreement” or sharing in that.
Then too you are sooo into this #LOA stuff that you judge everything in relationship to that. But the world of my experience that i try to share, even with you, comes from a much broader and diverse context … how can you think you are appreciating that when you narrow it down to just your agenda … ignoring mine?
Anway … no more of this negative spiral !!
Maybe try to share with me the positive agenda of what i am saying in this thought. Shucks, i would even love that you would go beyond even that as you frequently do …
I think both “it’s me” and “it’s other” are two sides of the same coin of creating something new in the world … especially if that thing is a social organism … as most things, one way or another, are. Both of those vibrational energies manifest when the thing actually happens and sustains itself. Focusing exclusively on the one, at the expense of the other, is not going to make it work … except perhaps inside people’s subjective imagination.seth
In other words, can you think of new ways
that self and other can cooperate to create?
Anyway, what I talk about is real stuff. Things I actually practice. Experiences I have. You are only talking about what you think things could be like. I am talking about what they are like, right now.
There is no judgment. You can come here and find out directly that it is everything you have wanted, and more, or you can stay there and your experience will remain as it is. That is not judgment, it is knowing by doing and telling of it.
I live “cooperation”. I live it every day in most moments of each day. Just had a 3 hour cooperation experience with Natalie. We each created it in full, in our own realities, and knew it, and could feel what we each became as the other created. It is wonderful to do that and I do that with so many every day now. I would love to do that with you … but it does not work when one party blames, as you continuously do, because you do not believe you are creating everything, including me. If you did, you would no longer blame, you would no longer judge, you would simply create what you wanted and I would do the same and together we would feel the dance of creation unfolding. Not judgment, just fact, experienced fact.
Nope i am not “creating everything here” … that is the essence of your denial of otherness. You are creating it with me.seth
anyway, if you will permit me a judgement, i find those self serving judgemental thoughts redundant … they are more of just the same you started with. you really do not need to defend yourself here.
Worth the effort.
this is not working …
therefore it is not love .
you cannot do it all yourself
Hint: source flowing through you is something you do and not dependent on me. To feel love is to express love, nothing less, nothing more.
Hint: you can feel love anytime, anywhere, you wish. And only you can stop it’s flow.
shucks i don’t remember saying anything that would contradict that … nor is it new to me.
shucks … 3 days ago i created some love from inside and projected it on a bowl of #blackerries … the feeling was so distinct and special that it surprised even this old codger . see September Blackberry Breakfast (comment 80736),
Now in the context of “Zen and the art of Motorcyce Maintence” i was even thinking about writing a book “Zen and the love of picking BlackBerries”
So if “this is not love”, look to you, not me.
I find love here.
You will find it where your conditions upon it allow you to.
Well shucks, then create love and project it on me … accept nothing else from your reality. If you would treat me as innocent as you treat a bowl of blackberries then you will experience me responding to your pure focus of desire as easily as you experience a bowl of blackberries doing the same.
It is only because you insist on the delusion that I am some special thing that you cannot create that you don’t experience my creation in your experience the same as you do a bowl of blackberries.
- … well i’ll have to think about that one. i don’t like the idea that i create you in any sense of the word … any more than i like the idea that you think you are creating me. i create me … i write my story … not you. You create you … you write your story … not me. The blackberries wrote their story … not me. It was the interaction of me with the vines combined with my appreciation of them which helped me create the bowl of love … and they taste great with breakfast too.
Instead of tying your like and dislike to ideas, tie them to real experiences … that is what you are doing different with the blackberries than with people. If you do the same with people, your experience of the results will be similar to your experience with the blackberries.
So yes … respect otherness unconditionally. As only you can do when you are not in competition with otherness in any way, which can only come from the sure knowledge that you created the otherness. Without that knowledge, there are always conditions, there is always protection of self in some form or another. But when all is an expression of self, then all can be felt unconditionally, from a blackberry, to another human. There is no higher form of unconditional love, and accompanying interaction and experience, than can be obtained by the deep letting go of conditions that happens naturally, when one realizes, that all that we experience is an expression of ourself. We cannot be at odds, we do not feel the need to create conditions, with aspects of ourself. We can only love them without condition … experience them as they are without judgment.
Well i agree that competing with others will not necessarily build up good feelings in me about them … more likely the opposite. But imagining that i am creating them will not cure that predicament. That seems to be just a peculiar way that you think … that does not logically follow at all over here.
If i make up what another person will do, and then they do it of their own free will … i will certainly like that. But to expect that they will, and that it was me doing it, would be to make them my slave. There is no love in that.
Denise loves that i serve her and i love to serve her. That is a special relationship we have. But the will is with each of us individually … it is voluntary … i do not move her, nor she me … even though sometimes we play that, as if in a game. But we never imagine such a game has real consequences …or that she actually creates my will. No that would not work. It is in the voluntary doing of it that makes the loving work. It works because we share an agenda … of our free will.
Even this morning i used her ques to start the morning ceremony … that felt really good. But there is no way that i would describe that as her creating me. That description is what does not compute.
Maybe what we do is actually similar to what you and Natalie are doing. I do not know. You and i do not do that because we have not been able to share an agenda. It has nothing to do with me being old school. That kind of comment from you appears to me to be just you intimidating me. Respecting that my will is for me to move, is loving my otherness … substituting your will for mine, which is what you creating me does, is to destroy that very love. Sorry, for me, you are doing it wrong.
“But imagining that i am creating them” → don’t imagine it. As I said above, come to know it.
“would be to make them my slave” → not really. That IS something you imagine about it. In fact, your experience will not change at all. For certain, they will not feel like a slave, and if they are doing the same, they will feel honored by your loving and beautiful creation of them. This is a real fact I experience … but I can’t experience it with you because you won’t.
“Denise loves that i serve her and i love to serve her” → yes. Nothing about that would change at all. In fact, she would love how you serve by design as well, not just by deed. The feeling of being served by being co-created is one of the most intimate and joyous ways of sharing there is.
“It is in the voluntary doing of it that makes the loving work” → sure, it’s all voluntary, on both sides. That is what makes it so intimate and enjoyable. Right now, you are only dabbling in one side of the equation, one way of sharing.
“that she actually creates my will” → doesn’t happen. We never impose will. We can’t. When it appears like we do in any model, it is only by spirit agreement that we can.
“But there is no way that i would describe that as her creating me” → That is true. What you describe there is not the feeling of her creating you. I am fairly sure you have never gotten to the point where you can actually feel what it feels like to feel someone creating you, other than random experiences you have not tied to that being what is happening, which we all have from time to time. But not consciously.
“Maybe what we do is actually similar to what you and Natalie are doing” → by your descriptions I would say no, not at all. What we are doing is very conscious. She makes a deliberate change in her state of being that represents me and I literally (not metaphorically) notice the changes in my reality aligning to the changes she made. It is quite an explicit experience, as explicit as someone changing your reality with saws and hammers. But it takes dropping all barriers and protection of self in relation to others to be able to sense this happening. It always happens, but most are not aware of it at all. Most are only aware of the impressions their own will makes on their reality and everything else simply appears as if out of nowhere. In fact, one can become aware of all things manifesting as they do so and the cause.
“Respecting that my will is for me to move, is loving my otherness … substituting your will for mine” → yep, it is not about will at all. The point is that will dissolves. One does not have the desire to apply will once one realizes that all things in experience are expressions of self. Will goes away entirely … for both parties. That is what makes the new experience so intimate and joyful.
“which is what you creating me does, is to destroy that very love” → a conjecture, and an imagined one at that. Until you try it, you simply will not know. You will only create theories about it. When you try it, and feel the deeper love possible in this environment, you will only laugh at the idea that love is being destroyed. All feelings of something being taken away, destroyed, controlled, come from the premise that one is in a situation of codependency with another. That there is an external world both must co-exist in. Once it is realized that all is aspect of self, including our experience of others, then the barriers fall away that we are trying to control and influence and protect our little individuality (self) from possible wrongdoing within … and love flurishes.
what you are doing over there may be great for you … i believe you when you continually stress how great it is working for you. but it is not for me. it is not the way i love.
however, your continually running it at me seems to be creating a block in you, so that you cannot even listen to me at all. it feels to me, that you are numb to me … oblivious to my actual being … all you seem to hear is yourself and your agenda.
#btw based upon the way you talk, it is all the #WillToBelieve …or Faith in yourself on which you are relying to carry your message. That faith in yourself is all you are repeatedly telling me … and yes, i know how to make that that kind of Faith work. if i wanted to believe it was for me, i would feel it just the way you do. But nathan, i do not want that … for the very reasons given above.
and please do me a favor … just a little one … save the usual self serving retort for inside yourself … it will feel a whole lot better in there to yourself, than it will to me.