Another instance of psychological interaction - comment 73593

Miami says ...
Overly complex by at least an order of magnitude, probably several.  

Simplified ...

Misconception:   "Seeing is Believing"    (What we perceive determines what we believe.)
The Actuality:     "Believing is Seeing"    (What we believe determines what we perceive!)

So, don’t wait to perceive it before you start believing it!
Believe it first, and then you will perceive it accordingly.

many thanks to Bashar


translate “overly complex” into “more detailed”.   There are at least 5 isolatable elements of psychological interaction between a person and the world.  This model is detailed enough to talk about the relationships of those elements. 

A whole lot more happens in out psychology than just that.   For one thing that assumes that all Action starts with Belief … and then specifices a fixed sequence of change.  That does not match my experience.  Nor does it show the relationship of any of that to the #world. 

if that is our model, then we start with a overly biased model.

All action does start with belief. Test that, it’s true.

Don’t understand “fixed sequence of change”. What’s changing in a fixed sequence? This is simply the process a human undergoes to create action. I don’t see something changing. It is the same process no matter what the action or if it involves only self, or self and others.

the sequence is fixed.  

All action does not start with belief.

You don’t need to drill down. That simply clutters the replys.

Yes, all action starts with belief. That is easily testable. In fact, one must make many assumptions to hijack that simple premis.

okay i’m game … how do you test that all action starts with belief?

Why do you keep drilling down?

Give me any action.

… i prefer details and examples to generalizations.  much more accurate.  much more useful for perdiction. much more practical for planning.

my index finger twitches.

I am talking about your replies … why do you go directly to level 3 instead of staying at level 2? Level 3 is intended for further expansion later … but you always drill down to level 3 right off the bat which makes all further replies have to be at the lowest possible level … essentially rendering level 2 useless.

oh okay.  i go down when i am expecting that level to be expanded independant of where the rest of the dialogue was going.   for example, talking about your proof that belief => Action.

Before you twitch your index finger you must have a thought about it.

(emotional reaction and interpretation don’t have to be in this one, but they could be … they are usually involved with otherness, not self action)

Before you can think about twitching your finger, you must perceive a finger to think about twitching.

Before you can perceive a finger to twitch, you must believe in fingers and conditions in which they can, or you will never get to the perception to start off with.

Well, that simply renders level 2 impotent … might as well not even be there.

I stay at level 2 as long as possible, until it becomes too cluttered or interleaved, then branch to level 3. Makes the dialogs easier to manage and read.

well my experience is that i can have a thought about it, or i can just do it and the thought will follow.  or it can even happen with no will from me at all.  or somebody else can reach over and move it.  or it can be inside of a pussey and twitch to feel around.  the will can come from emotion or reason or as an effect of the world.  and the thought of that can proceed or follow the event.   there is much more diversity than Bashar’s fixed sequence implies.

You said “I twitch”, so that eliminates others doing it. Inside a pussy is the same as the first.

You may not be noticing the thought, but a thought always proceeds the action. It may be fleeting, and even may be separate by such an amount of time that you don’t connect the two, but no action can come from non-thought. It can come from no-will, yes. But not no-thought. Even if a hypnotist initiates it, you must believe in the conditions, and you will have a thought about it prior to it.

This is all verifiable, not only by personal observation, but also with CAT scans of brain activity.

well i edited it to,  “my finger twitches”. 

i predict that scans will bear out that brain activity that causes body movements  is quite independent of the brain activity that happens when we think of that movement.  they can be corrolated but the one will not always preceed the other … whether they are bound by habit or happen spontaneously.

if you disagree, then we need to see the actual data.

Of course it is already know that different areas of the brain light up when one thinks about something and does it … or just thinks about it.  Also brain lesions can shed some light on this sequence which you postilate is fixed.

Actually I do disagree … exactly because such studies were done and that led to the training practices by Olympic athletes whereby they imagine doing the sport, in great detail, as a large part of their training.

What the studies do show is that the same centers fire in the brain for both, and in fact that it goes far beyond just the brain. The body develops the same muscle memory patterns with imaginary training, and even evolves them, as it does with actual physical training.  

Yogi’s have been saying this for thousands of years. Science came to it independently in (I believe the late 70’s). Look it up. It is well known. I have seen quite a few documentaries that discuss it as well as have heard it talked about during Olympic TV events by the sports casters.

me thinks you go way beyond the actual data given … making up a story that suits.

my actual experience differs. 

Motor imagery is a mental process by which an individual rehearses or simulates a given action. It is widely used in sport training as mental practice of actionneurological rehabilitation, and has also been employed as a research paradigm in cognitive neuroscience and cognitive psychology to investigate the content and the structure of covert processes

A large number of functional neuroimaging studies have demonstrated that motor imagery is associated with the specific activation of the neural circuits involved in the early stage of motor control ...

Motor imagery has been studied using the classical methods of introspection and mental chronometry. These methods have revealed that motor images retain many of the properties, in terms of temporal regularities, programming rules and biomechanical constraints, which are observed in the corresponding real action when it comes to execution. For instance ...

Measurements of cardiac and respiratory activity during motor imagery and during actual motor performance revealed a covariation of heart rate and pulmonary ventilation with the degree of imagined effort.

Motor imagery is now widely used as a technique to enhance motor learning and to improve neurological rehabilitation in patients after stroke. Its effectiveness has been demonstrated in musicians.

There are many more studies online of all kinds. This is not an isolated wikipedia article. This is real known science. You can reframe it, retrofit it to make it work in your model. Anyone can do that with anything. No matter how big a pile of facts, science, and common sense I present, you will still make a left turn if you want to. Staying inside one’s box is easy … remaking everything to make your beliefs valid is easy. Going forward into the unknown, going against the beliefs you have held for a lifetime, and forging new beliefs, to obtain new perceptions, takes real courage.  

All journeys in manifested experience start within the structures of one’s beliefs. Beliefs are the cauldrin in which manifested experience happens … the canvas of one’s reality.


This is why the above diagram starts with belief. Without the supporting beliefs, perception cannot go there. Perception can only go where beliefs support the journy of experience.